--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "funhog1" wrote:
>
Please, remove my Not-So-Magnificent-Seven from
> your database. I don't want them there and no one asked me if they
> could put them there. The folks who put them there have tried to
> remove them.

Just for the record, no members of the NewAge group have asked me to
remove a box because Funhog doesn't want it there. Other members who
are anti database have asked me to remove their boxes, but the group
was originally started for the sole purpose of having a database and
I won't remove boxes that others have entered. If you don't like the
database, then don't join the group.

<< NewAge site and have been unable to get them removed even
with direct requests.>>>

The ONLY request I received was one (and only one) from Funhog and no
where did they mention the name of the boxes they wanted removed.
Even if I wanted to remove them, I couldn't since I don't have the
names.

IMO, letterboxes are like children. You raise them from infant (idea
for a box) to teenager (clue writing), then you send them out into
the world. Once they're gone, you're no longer able to control what
happens to them. I think that's really what this is all about. People
want to control every little detail or comment about their boxes, and
that's just not possible. If you want to control it that much, then
keep it in your house and only let certain people sign into it (now
doesn't that sound like fun *rolls eyes*)

If someone is that overprotective of their boxes, then maybe they
shouldn't be planting them in the first place.

*note: this is just my opinion, and we all know what people say about
opinions.*

NeverEnuff

> The ONLY request I received was one (and only one) from Funhog and no
> where did they mention the name of the boxes they wanted removed.
> Even if I wanted to remove them, I couldn't since I don't have the
> names.
>

I never received a reply to that request so the dialogue died. I will
send you a complete list offline. Thanks, Funhog

NeverEnuff:

I almost laughed out loud when compared Funhog to a child not getting
her way, since I thought the whole New Age board was created for the
same reason. You wanted a database so picked up your sticks and
decided to play with someone else that liked you. Childish, indeed,
and hypocritical as far as I can tell.

If you want to continue with the child comparison, though, how about
this: Boxes always need maintenance. They never actually grow up!
Nope, they're always the kid--maybe a teenager in fact, that likes to
go off alone and pretend to be independent, but then goes back to mom
and dad asking for more money. A box usually isn't thrown into the
wild to fend for itself for all eternity. The owner will usually
drop by once in awhile to replace the logbook, stamp, ziplock bags,
etc. as needed. For orphan boxes, some kind soul might drop by and
do the honors. So by your own comparison, you shouldn't have a
database of boxes the owner does not approve of since the box isn't a
full grown adult--as you seemed to suggest.

> If someone is that overprotective of their boxes, then maybe they
> shouldn't be planting them in the first place.

Attitudes like that will just drive letterboxers underground. Are
you trying to help this hobby or destroy it? Telling someone like
Funhog that they shouldn't be hiding letterboxes. Blasphany. We
could say the same about you: If you don't like us letterboxers,
maybe YOU shouldn't be the one involved in this hobby. I don't
really believe that myself, but that's an easy conclusion to reach if
I used your same twisted sense of logic.

In fact, if your sense of logic is so good, let's follow it further.
Let's find all of your boxes and replace the stamps with ones that we
like. Maybe even move the box a bit. Why not? What the owner think
doesn't matter. As soon as they release the box out in the wild,
it's fair game. You said so yourself.

Funhog has placed some wonderful letterboxes, but she's not going to
stop placing them because of a couple of misfits. She'll just make
sure the clues are going given "under the table" so the select few
she approves. It'll drive her letterboxes underground--which is
criminal for such wonderful boxes.

And then to deny access to the board just because you don't like what
somebody else has to say? So they can't provide input? Talk about
censorship with a capital C.

Frankly, I don't care. I have little doubt it'll last that long.
It's too easy to spike the database with false information. (And
don't think for a second that I'm the only person who has done
that.) The implementation is absolutely awful and is a bear to use--
especially as the database continues to grow. It's laughable. And,
even if I'm wrong, it'll just send more letterboxers underground
making it harder to acquire clues--especially for the boxes you'd
most likely want to get in the first place. And you'll end up
pissing off so many people, you'll eventually find that EVERYONE
that's joined your board will be a "spy".

A lot of letterboxing relies on the honor system. I'm not talking
about counting P's and F's, but rather in honoring the wishing of the
owner of a box. I *have* moved letterboxes I've found to new
locations, but only because I felt the owner wouldn't have liked how
exposed their box was if they saw what it looked like at that time of
year. I have even replaced other people's missing boxes, but tried
to do so in such a way as to honor their intent by recreating the
original stamp and placing it as close to the original location as
possible. A lot of people like to throw around "there are no rules",
but that's not true. There ARE rules. There MUST be rules if this
hobby is to work and everyone get along. And one of the most
important should be to "honor the owner".

-- Ryan

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "NeverEnuff"
wrote:
...
> Just for the record, no members of the NewAge group have asked me
to
> remove a box because Funhog doesn't want it there. Other members
who
> are anti database have asked me to remove their boxes, but the
group
> was originally started for the sole purpose of having a database
and
> I won't remove boxes that others have entered. If you don't like
the
> database, then don't join the group.
...

Well, I'm a member of that group. Please remove the records from the
database pertaining to Funhog's boxes. Furthermore, please remove any
box listing for which the box owner requests it be removed.

Anybody want to venture a guess as to how long it takes for
this "spy" to be ejected from New Age Letterboxing?

-Isosceles

(CC: New Age Letterboxing)

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen"
wrote:
If you don't like us letterboxers,
> maybe YOU shouldn't be the one involved in this hobby.>>>

Ya know, maybe you're right. Now I know why so many other people
leave this group.

<< > even if I'm wrong, it'll just send more letterboxers underground
> making it harder to acquire clues--especially for the boxes you'd
> most likely want to get in the first place.>>>>

Just for the record, there isn't one box that I think is more worthy
of finding than any other box. I haven't seen one stamp that is
better than another one....just different. And the only exceptional
carver I've seen is ScoutDogs.

All I want is the ability to be able to check on a box to see what
trail conditions it has or how long of a hike it is before I set out.
I don't want to have to wade through a ton of posts to find out, or
to wait for the placer to get back to me. Sometimes we wake up in the
morning and decide then and there to go letterboxing. You could say
that I could find this information on the clues, but some placers
don't include this in their clues. Also, the placer could be in great
shape and think a mile hike is "easy", but the person going after the
box could be in not so great shape and could hurt themselves trying
for that box. If the placer just says "easy hike", how is the seeker
supposed to know how long the hike actually is??
The Ringing Rox box is a perfect example. You have to cross a boulder
field to get to it. Now some kids might think this is great fun, but
other kids might not. I know my 3 yr. old didn't find it fun when we
had to carry her across the rocks because it was more like rock
climbing than rock jumping to her. If we had known this, we wouldn't
have tried for that box. But since I entered that information in the
database, the next person with a small child will know what to expect
first.

And that is why I love the database.

I think I'll just continue to letterbox but not sign into anyone's
logbook. I can still collect images in my book. I don't need to leave
my mark anywhere. Then no one will know if I've visited their box and
won't have to worry that I'll "ruin" their box by possibly putting it
in a database.

NeverEnuff

< decided to play with someone else that liked you. Childish, indeed,
and hypocritical as far as I can tell.>>



< misinformation.>>



This is the kind of behavior that gives childishness its bad reputation.
You really have no room to talk. I wonder if you realize that ever flame war
that erupts here, you have your finger in. You see to think youre your so
wise and mature. I think you need a good hard look in the mirror.



<>



Again, who are you to say anything? You have drove more people away than a
database that no one has to look at if they dont like it, ever could,
because the only way to get away from you, is to quit the group. You hold a
grudge longer than any person I have ever known.



< everyone get along. >>



As far as this goes we ALL know how you like to make rules, and if everyone
doesnt comply with YOUR rules, how you like to attack and belittle them.
Well, Im a big girl Ryan, so bring it on if you feel the need to attack
someone. Ill not let you criticize someone else just so youll leave me
alone. I wont stand by the sidelines and watch you batter and bad talk
someone like a 12 yr old with a bad attitude.



Now as far as the database goes, lets say you never knew your box was in
said database. Would you be able to tell that it was by looking at the box?
Does it encourage people to go out and destroy it by seeing it listed? If
you didnt already know it was in there, would it effect you in any way
shape or form? The answer to this is no. If Funhog should go underground
with her boxes. Well thats her choice isnt it? It has nothing to do with
the letterbox itself. The database harmed nothing. She is the one who is
showing childish behavior. My two year old showed the same logic. If you can
t do it my way than I dont want to play.



New Age is a different site.

You do not get to run it, because you did not make it.

It hurts no one.



Kerri


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Okay everyone

The posts on this topic are turning from
Database/Removal/Letterboxing topics to slams on specific people,
character and attitude I consider that personal attacks. Lets back
off the character analysis and finger pointing and either stick to
the topics alone or take it off the list where the rest of the group
doesn't have to watch you slap at each other.

For the record I consider EVERYONE involved in this thread so far a
good friend and a good letterboxer, this is not a hand slap at any
one in particular but a reminder to everyone writing on this thread
that personal attacks are highly frowned upon.

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving, (always a day late and a dollar short)
pandora{HIB}

> Just for the record, there isn't one box that I think is more
> worthy of finding than any other box. I haven't seen one stamp that
> is better than another one....just different. And the only
> exceptional carver I've seen is ScoutDogs.

You know, it's hilarious you can contradict yourself in the same
paragraph. No stamp you've seen is better than any others, but
ScoutDogs is an exeptional carver. Seems strange that
an "exceptional" carver is making stamps as unworthy as the rest of
us.

Then you continue on about not wanting to find a certain letterbox
because it required passing a boulder field. Sounds suspiciously
like that box was less 'worthy' to find than the boxes that didn't
require passing a bolder field.

You deny that one box or stamp is more worthy than another, and yet
you still pick favorites out. Now I'll be the first to say that
different boxes hold a different appeal to different people--in fact,
I've even encouraged people to mentally note such things and design
the box with exactly that in mind.

> All I want is the ability to be able to check on a box to see what
> trail conditions it has or how long of a hike it is before I set
> out. I don't want to have to wade through a ton of posts to find
> out, or to wait for the placer to get back to me.

There's nothing wrong with that. But why antagonize others in the
process? Encourage people to add their boxes to the database and
they'd be fair game. Do it behind their backs and it's a recipe for
disaster. There's nothing wrong with the database--it's the lack of
control for the owners that's the problem. Give it to them. It
won't hurt you none, and everyone will be happier.

> You could say that I could find this information on the clues, but
> some placers don't include this in their clues.

If the clue maker doesn't provide enough information for you to make
an informed decision about whether to get the box or not, then maybe
the box isn't meant for you. Just don't get it. Don't try to force
a box not designed with you in mind to fit your needs. Let it go.

> If the placer just says "easy hike", how is the seeker
> supposed to know how long the hike actually is??

You could try looking it up on the Internet. You could search hiking
guides. You could ask others who've found the box. And you could e-
mail the owner of the box and ask if they'd be willing to add such
information to their clue.

> I know my 3 yr. old didn't find it fun when we
> had to carry her across the rocks because it was more like rock
> climbing than rock jumping to her. If we had known this, we
> wouldn't have tried for that box.

But you DID try for that box! You walked up to a boulder field and
deliberately decided that you'd rather continue forward and get the
letterbox than to turn back. You could have aborted your mission
before stepping one foot on that bolder field. But you didn't.
Why? Because getting that box was more important than the well-being
of your child?

Okay, before the flames start, I'm surely exaggerating. When you go
out on a mission, it's sometimes tough to abort halfway through. I'm
guilty of that myself and am willing to conceed it can happen to the
best of us.

Rather, I'd like to remind people to use a little common sense out on
the trails. Don't endanger yourself or others when you head out
there. If the box is on the edge of a slippery cliff, just there,
barely out of reach, let it go. It's not worth it. If someone hides
a letterbox at the top of a bridge that requires climbing gear and a
parachute to get it--and possibily some time in jail--don't do it.
It's not worth it. Is the box hidden in a decomposing stump but
doesn't appear to be there? Maybe it fell down into that big, deep
hole in the center and tearing up the stump will get it. Don't do
it. Let the box go. It's not worth the damage to the envionment.

> But since I entered that information in the
> database, the next person with a small child will know what to
> expect first.

You know, a lot of people on this board have children and want
children-accessible letterboxes. Why don't a few people create
letterboxes explicitly with children in mind? I don't have any
children and never had any desire to created such boxes myself, but
it's SOOO necessary with an activity like this! I want people to
create boxes and say right there at the very top: This box/series was
deliberately placed with children of such-and-such years in mind.
The stamps would be of Disney and Pixar characters (or any other
similarly themed characters for younger people). The clue would be
educational--teach the children what different types of trees look
like. Don't just say look for a maple tree on the right, but include
a diagram with a picture of a maple leaf! (This could help adults
learn the local trees/bushes/flowers/etc as well!) And they'd all be
hidden in an easy-to-walk park (preferably one with a playground).
The boxes would be hidden low to the ground where the children can
easily reach. The logbooks would be large since kids tend to scrawl
rather large letters with their unpracticed hands and need the extra
room. The logbook would be decorated with stickers too, with lots of
cartoon characters on the cover.

In all honestly, I've never seen one, single letterbox that I would
call "kid friendly". Some are better candidates than others, I'll
grant you that, but I've never seen anybody hide a letterbox
deliberately with kids in mind. At best, they've always been
for "parents with kids", with the kids as an afterthought.

But I've gone out totally on a tangent. You love the database
because it helps you decide what boxes to find, but what good is it
if much of the information in it is wrong because you've managed to
piss everyone off with it? A database in and of itself isn't a bad
idea (although I'm sure some would disagree with me), but the lack of
owner control or permission is a problem. And until you've fixed
that problem, I'd consider anything I saw in the database suspect.

> I think I'll just continue to letterbox but not sign into anyone's
> logbook.

Why? Nobody cares if you sign their logbook. It's the database they
don't like!

-- Ryan

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen"
wrote:

>Seems strange that an "exceptional" carver is making stamps as
>unworthy as the rest of us.

When was "unworthy" used? The point here was to say that all
boxes
are worth finding and all stamps are worth collecting and as an added
bonus, she thinks ScoutDogs is an exceptional carver.

>Sounds suspiciously like that box was less 'worthy' to find than the
>boxes that didn't require passing a bolder field.

It has nothing to do with being `worthy' and everything to do
with
the ability of the boxer.

>You deny that one box or stamp is more worthy than another, and yet
>you still pick favorites out.

Who picked a favorite? Again, it's about the ability of the
boxers.

>Do it behind their backs and it's a recipe for disaster.

Nothing was done behind anyone's back.

>There's nothing wrong with the database--it's the lack of control
>for the owners that's the problem.

Do you mean the kind of control that lets anyone edit entries to say
things like, This is a bad idea?

>You could try looking it up on the Internet. You could search hiking
>guides.

You can't determine how long a trail is, on the Internet, based
on
letterbox clues and I'm sure most people don't have hiking
guides for
every park and trail in the US.

>You could ask others who've found the box.

Don't know that, haven't found the box yet.

>And you could e-mail the owner of the box and ask if they'd be
>willing to add such information to their clue.

That would be great if everyone was online 24/7, thus one of the
reasons for the database.

>Rather, I'd like to remind people to use a little common sense out on
>the trails. Don't endanger yourself or others when you head out
>there. If the box is on the edge of a slippery cliff, just there,
>barely out of reach, let it go. It's not worth it. If someone hides
>a letterbox at the top of a bridge that requires climbing gear and a
>parachute to get it--and possibily some time in jail--don't do it.
>It's not worth it. Is the box hidden in a decomposing stump but
>doesn't appear to be there? Maybe it fell down into that big, deep
>hole in the center and tearing up the stump will get it. Don't do
>it. Let the box go. It's not worth the damage to the envionment.

Exactly!! That's another reason for the database, one tool to
minimize searching of posts and other media to help make an informed
decision about whether or not to travel 2 hours in one direction for
a box or boxes.

>You love the database because it helps you decide what boxes to
>find, but what good is it if much of the information in it is wrong
>because you've managed to piss everyone off with it?

I would venture to say that most (I can't say all, because people
aren't perfect.) of the information is accurate and does not give
away information about a box that isn't already in the clues, but
does give information about conditions of the trail. You might want
to watch your language here. Several people have expressed a concern
for that type of language.